Let's Talk About It With OhioGuidestone
There are things we all think, but don’t always say out loud. In Let’s Talk About It, the experts at OhioGuidestone unpack the real conversations happening at every stage of life. From early childhood to adulthood, we explore what behavior is really telling us, and when it might be time to reach out for support.
Let's Talk About It With OhioGuidestone
Carrying What Others Don't See
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Sometimes the people checking in on everyone else are the ones struggling the most.
Adults are often expected to keep functioning no matter how overwhelmed, exhausted, or emotionally disconnected they feel. They keep parenting, working, caregiving, and showing up for everyone else, even when they're silently carrying more than they can manage.
In this episode of Let's Talk About It With OhioGuidestone, host Derek Rader sits down with Catherine Crawford, MA, LPCC-S, a Clinical Supervisor at OhioGuidestone and a Linehan Board of Certification, Certified Clinician™ in Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT).
Catherine shares why emotional distress in adults is often overlooked, the warning signs that family, friends, and coworkers may miss, and how DBT skills can help people navigate life's most difficult moments.
Together, they discuss the importance of vulnerability, challenging the stigma around asking for help, and how meaningful conversations can create hope and connection before someone reaches a crisis.
If you've ever felt like you had to hold it all together, this conversation is for you.
If you or someone you care about is struggling, call or text 988 to connect with trained crisis professionals at any time, day or night. For immediate, life-threatening emergencies, call 911. Talking about mental health can save lives, and every conversation matters.
There are things we all think, but don't always say out loud.
Is this normal?
Why am I feeling so overwhelmed?
Shouldn't I be able to handle this?
If you've ever wondered, "Am I the only one feeling this way?" You're not, let's talk about it.
OhioGuidestone's Promise Run is back! Join us at Wallace Lake in Berea on Saturday, September 22nd.
Questions about our podcast? Email podcast@ohioguidestone.org to get in touch with us. To learn more about OhioGuidestone, visit ohioguidestone.org.
Before we begin, we'd like to take a moment to share a content advisory. This episode contains conversations about suicide, mental health, and emotional well-being. Some listeners may find the topics difficult or triggering. We encourage you to prioritize your well-being and seek support from someone you trust, a mental health professional or crisis resource. For listeners in the United States, the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline is available by calling or texting 988. If this topic feels overwhelming, feel free to pause or skip the episode. As an adult, vulnerability isn't a weakness. In fact, it can help you build a life worth living. Let's talk about it.
SPEAKER_00You're so welcome. You forgot one part of my title.
SPEAKER_01I did.
SPEAKER_00Extraordinary, extraordinary clinical supervisor.
SPEAKER_01I'll have to uh go back on my notes and we'll fix that on the editing.
SPEAKER_00I forgive you, but thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_01Today we're talking about adults. Uh self-harm, suicidal ideation, functioning depression, shame. When we talk about suicide prevention, adults can sometimes disappear from the conversation. Why do you think that happens?
SPEAKER_00Because nobody likes to think about someone dying. Because reality is difficult to accept. And because we can't even online say a word like suicide without it being edited.
SPEAKER_01So what are some of the unique pressures that adults carry that they often hide from everyone else?
SPEAKER_00I don't know. I think it's I think that they're honestly so vast and so unique to the individual that everyone's reason to want to die can be very different. But the hopeful part about that is that we can figure out what causes someone to want to die so we can solve it. We can solve the problems that want to cause it. Um, but I do think that the causes to them are very unique. Most of the time, I hear people say things like they feel emptiness. The intensity of what they're experiencing is just far too great. It's thoughts like, um, I can't take this. This will never end. There's no solution to this. And so if you can imagine being in any sort of a situation where your thought arises to, I can't do this, I can't handle this. And the only option I have to get out of hell is to die. This is to die by suicide. Well, certainly that's what you're going to do because your life's unbearable as it's being lived. And it's our job as a society to help bring hope to people, to have better resources for people to know that that's not the solution to problems, that we have other ways to solve problems and to provide those.
SPEAKER_01So does suicidal ideation and self-harm come from one major crisis, or is it years of accumulated exhaustion?
SPEAKER_00Maybe it's both and.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00Maybe it's both and. I mean, I've certainly known people, and I think that this is what makes it so unpredictable. The people who get missed are the people who maybe they've never experienced any depression in their life. And then all of a sudden, this major shift happens. And now my life's different, extraordinarily different, and I don't know what to do about it at all. So when I'm left with no other solution and that level of hopelessness hits in, well, of course I'm going to think that dying is going to solve that because I've never faced this before. I've never known anybody else to face it before. Um, so I think that yes, it can be accumulations. And for many people, we see that they've experienced trauma, they've experienced all sorts of things in life, you know, that would make it unbearable, not having the resources that they need, um, being in groups of people that are overlooked or not met with uh connection and support. It can also be people who why all of a sudden, in the middle of menopause, am I hearing voices? What the hell is this? And I can't do that. I can't do this, and my hormones are nuts. And now I want to die, you know? So it is unique to the person. And I wish it could be as predictable as we want it to be, but it's not.
SPEAKER_01It really isn't. So why do you think adults are so good at convincing people they're fine?
SPEAKER_00Because we're socially reinforced to do that. If I come down the hallway and you say, Catherine, how are you? Well, you don't actually want me to say, oh God, my kid just totally flipped out on me. And now I have this meeting that I need to go to, and I'm just really nervous about it. Maybe you genuinely want to, but you don't actually have time to listen to it, right? Or to give an answer or the time that you really want to. So you, when you say I'm fine, oh, that's great. Glad to hear it, and walk on. Um, because we are socially reinforced to make emotions not happen out of other people. We like people, people like me best when I am funny, when I'm joyful, when I'm exuberant, when I'm making jokes at the beginning of a podcast, right? Like, and when I'm equally as intense when I'm frustrated or when I'm disappointed, when I'm hurting, it's like, God, that's a lot to be around. Right. So we are socially reinforced to say that we're fine. And part of that is needed because we do have to be in society and we do have to go to work and we do have to get things done and be effective, right? And get goals met. And there's the balance that needs to be had, right? On like, do we really believe in connecting with people in an authentic way? Are we creating workspaces and work environments that really allow and do not punish people for saying, gosh, my ADHD is really kicking in today. It's making me feel like a loser. And for your boss to say, well, yeah, that makes total sense. What can we do to adapt to your neurodiversity? No, they say, okay, well, maybe you should take some time off and figure that out. Well, I don't know about you. I can't undo my ADHD. Right. So, so these things, when you're when you're living life and what you bring to life all of a sudden stops working for your environment or for you, then one of the things that can happen is the desire to die because I can't stand my life. My life isn't worth living.
SPEAKER_01There's so much to unpack there, especially around the shame. And I can completely relate. I think anyone listening can. How many times have you been walking, you know, in your workplace or at church, and people ask you, how are you? And your immediate answer is, I'm fine, things are going well. And it could be the complete opposite. What role does shame and and I guess perceived failure play for adults who are struggling?
SPEAKER_00I think for some people it plays a big role. And I think for some people it doesn't, right? Like I think that for some people, they don't know how to communicate that they're feeling suicidal. It's not just about I'm embarrassed to. It's about, I don't even know what this is. I just know that I need it to stop. Right. Um, I think that for some people, absolutely, we know that shame is a disconnecting emotion. It definitely heightens our risk to act on suicide, which is why it's so important to come in a genuinely understanding place to everyone that we talk to, to assume the best of people, to know that everything has a cause and a purpose for why it's happening, even if we don't agree with it. Um, and to really seek to listen and respond in a way that helps other people know that their experience is valid. So I yes, shame absolutely plays a factor into suicide a lot of times. Um, also, though, sometimes it makes people live. They would feel shame if they died and hurt people that they love because they're not here anymore. So shame is a very unique emotion. And actually, I feel like we give it a bad rep. And there are behaviors to be shameful about, right? Like if I want to be part of this group and I'm not acting in a way that this group accepts, well, then I have to stop doing that behavior. Now, having thoughts that you want to die, the shame is not justified. Like, that is not justified shame. And if you're around people who make you feel shameful because you want to die as a solution, then you need to get a new tribe. You need to get a new group of people around you that can be supportive and can be understanding.
SPEAKER_01What do you wish spouses, partners, friends, even family members played paid closer attention to?
SPEAKER_00I'm gonna tell you what I would tell a client when they don't know what to say, which is let me get in my wise mind about that. I think that I would tell somebody, you know, if you're loved one, if you're loving someone who wants to die, how they can show up is just to honestly say, I'm really interested to hear what's hurting you. And, you know, of course we want to check on safety. You know, are you planning on acting on this? Do we need to get you help, right? Do we need to call 988? But honestly, the problem isn't that people want to die. The problems to solve are the things that cause them to want to die. That's what we can change, that's what we have control of. Like we, if someone says, I want to die, well, that's in the universe now, right? That urge is there, and we can get people coping skills to not act on that. But what they need is a better life. And what you when you speak to, and I've I've worked in suicide for a very long time, but when I when I work with anybody who's dealt with pervasive chronic suicidal behavior or experiences, and I say to them that the problem I know isn't that you want to die, it's the problem that your life needs to change. They're like, oh, finally. Oh my God, yes, finally. And that's the validation that we don't want to say as a society, that there's okay, like, yes, I can understand why you may think that that would that would be something to help, and it's not. It's a terrible idea, and it's not going to solve or fix the problem that's causing you to want to die in the first place.
SPEAKER_01So on the other side of things, though, I think of those adults who don't want to be a burden. They don't want to reach out, they stop asking for help as a result. How do we reach them?
SPEAKER_00Um, well, this might be a little taboo. I often tell people you'll be more of a burden if you're dead to those people than if you're alive, um, which is a bit tongue-in-cheek. But we're, we're, we make waves. There is no such, like, there is no such thing. If you're a burden, so what? That person cares about you. You're going to be an annoying burden sometimes. Like I'm being a burden to Derek right now because I might be giving him answers that are, I don't know, different than what he anticipated or expected. And that doesn't mean that I'm a burden or that he actually feels that way. Now I could clarify and say, now, Derek, am I a burden to you? Right. Um, and if I am, then I can solve why I'm being a burden. But what's the big deal about being a burden? It's a solvable thing. So if your family honestly thinks that you're a burden, maybe something that you're doing is frustrating them. Like maybe you are calling them 1500 times at 2 a.m. That doesn't mean you're a burden. But then maybe we just need to call them 15 times at 2 p.m. instead of 2 a.m. You know, like I don't think we have to be judgmental either way. Like people aren't a burden because they need help. But absolutely, there's going to be times that other people feel frustrated with you, and that's okay. That is okay to have people be frustrated with you. And then for you to go find new people to get support from, call me at Ohio Guidestone. Leave me 15 voicemails. Not really, please don't do that. Um, but you know, like we we can find and solve those things, but on the other side of it, like, no, no one is a burden. Everyone is lovable. Every person on this earth is lovable. Somebody has loved even the most heinous of people in society, you know, like even Hitler had a person that loved him.
SPEAKER_01He had dogs, I believe.
SPEAKER_00He had a lot of people, right? He had a whole following. But the point is you're lovable. You're lovable, and your shame doesn't need to make you die, and your shame will pass, and your shame is probably not even justified. And there's someone who's not annoyed by you anyway.
SPEAKER_01So, one area that you and I have talked um over the years about is DBT. And I wanted to incorporate that into our conversation today because I think it's so important. So, if you could tell us what DBT is and why those skills can be so powerful for people in emotional crisis.
SPEAKER_00I'm smiling because I love DBT, but also because I need a four-hour, five-hour podcast to like describe this. Um Dialectical behavior therapy is a treatment that the whole point is to build a life that feels worth experiencing. The whole point is to help people live in a way that's more present, less judgmental, um, and to be able to know what they're experiencing, experiencing reality as it is, feeling their emotions, um, changing their emotions, building more positive experiences, building relationships. And you might be like, well, how is that different than regular talk therapy? And I'd have to say, well, arguably, I think that dialectual behavior therapy is better. And all therapy, right, has a valuable place. And some of the differences are in this philosophy of a dialectic, which some people have been like, what is that? And it, you know, I think I heard Nicole talk about in a previous podcast that a dialectic is this idea that more than one thing can be true, right? That um there is no such thing as an absolute truth. And, you know, I I won't get into philosophical debates with anybody about it right now because I'm only talking to you. Um you don't have to agree with it, that it's to say that our perspective is our perspective. So, you know, even the way that I'm talking right now earlier, when I said that, like, wow, should she have really talked about shame, that there are things to feel shameful about and all this stuff? Well, that's one dialectic, right? That like, yeah, I mean, they could feel shame about it. And somebody else might come up here and say something, say something totally different. And that doesn't make either one of us wrong, right? It's not, I'm not saying a fact of that, well, yeah, who cares if somebody, you know, thinks you're a burden. That's not a fact. That's a Catherineism. That's my experience. I'm just so commanding and convincing that it seems like a fact, right? Um, and you know, somebody else might come up here and give a different perspective. And so then the idea is, well, what's the middle point? Right? If it's, well, who cares if they think that you're a burden? And the other one is, well, yeah, I mean, like it is burdensome. How do we find the middle of that? Like, well, maybe you're not a burden, and maybe it's okay to ask for help. And maybe sometimes people are going to be bothered by you, and that's totally out of your control. And it's okay to be sad about that.
SPEAKER_01So, with that, what does it mean to build a life worth staying for?
SPEAKER_00Oh man. I think if it's okay, I'd like to share some of my favorite life worth living goals. I have had, I've asked clients over the years to send me pictures of when they get to their life worth living. I have a beautiful picture of a person who married their partner who is getting their doctorate. I have a person who sent me a picture from a beach in California because they finally moved out there. Um, I have so many beautiful updates from people about, oh yes, this is what I'm doing in my life now. Like, I'm a therapist now. I mean, I ran into somebody in the community who came up and gave me a hug and was like, I'm a therapist now. I'm like, oh my God, like this is incredible, right? I've heard people say that they want to have one of my favorite ones I've ever heard is that they want to have a farm with chickens and all the fix-ins, you know, like these are beautiful dreams. This is not, I don't want to be anxious. This is I want to be around my chickens. And if my anxiety shows up, I wish I, you know, could just say, forget you. Like, forget you, anxiety, because I'm feeding my chickens today. I guess you're coming along with me. And maybe you won't today. Maybe I won't feel you sometimes. But that's what a life worth living is. It's not getting rid of pain. It's living life is worth living even with pain. And pain is temporary. But when we're in the throes of suicide or self-harm, and we get into that experience, we don't think that way. Our mind is so set on this is forever and this is the only option. But it's not. It's not forever, and it's not the only option. You can have your chicken and fixins. You can send your therapist a picture of you getting married. And, you know, I'm pretty sure that eventually the problem that caused you to want to die in the first place will show up again. You're going to have more resilience towards it. You're going to have built your muscles around it. Maybe it doesn't even show up all anymore because of your skills. Uh, you know, that's what it means to build a life worth living, a life worth staying for. Now, all lives are worth living. So when we say a life worth living, all lives are worth living. Not all lives are worth experiencing.
SPEAKER_01I love how you talk about these intense feelings, and they're not forever.
SPEAKER_00They're not.
SPEAKER_01That it will pass. That it's, you know, one chapter and a much, much longer story. And I think the challenge for folks is how do you help someone tolerate a feeling that that feels so unbelievably unbearable in that moment?
SPEAKER_00It's such a counterintuitive response because we so desperately want to initiate with solution most of the time, or why to explain away the feeling? But it's actually to lean in and to say, God, that makes sense why you're upset about it. You know, wow, that makes perfect sense that you're feeling all this shame. And it's not forever. Maybe you did accidentally text the wrong person, and maybe they are making fun of you for it. And maybe every time we look back in history, this really is going to suck. And maybe one day we'll actually laugh about it. But right now it's not very funny at all. It hurts. And it'll pass. It's like the waves on the ocean. They come and they go. They there is no such thing in life, anything, happy or sad, that's permanent. All things are temporary. We just prefer, you know, we want to make everything last forever that we like, and we, you know, that's and get rid of the stuff we don't. That if we really think about it, like all things are temporary.
SPEAKER_01They really are. And and I think I like what you said also earlier, talking about building those pathways and the resilience. And uh, I think you explained it like uh muscles. Is that neuroplasticity? Did I say that right?
SPEAKER_00Are those one and the same in terms of oh well I was giving like the actual metaphor, like when you go to the gym, I just didn't complete out my thought there, you know. But like when we go to the gym and we pick up the bar, you know, we might start with just the bar and then we add weights on, right? Um, and we're building our strength, we're building our resilience. Does this ever stop hurting? To work out. Not usually. There's not usually. I mean, I I can't say I'm a fitness pro. And I've if you if it doesn't belabor you some, then you're not working out. Right. Um, and that's kind of when we're talking about people fighting to build a life that feels worth experiencing, worth living. You're still in hell when you're building that. And you have to look beyond the hell smoke to see that life is above it. And you're climbing this ladder out of hell. That's what you're doing. That's what treatment is. That's what your supports are. That's what the people you love are, that's what your joy is. It's you climbing the rungs out of hell to get out of misery. And that's, you know, I mean, when you're talking about neuroplasticity, that's the brain's uh way that it reconnects and regrows, and we can learn new pathways and our brain can retrain itself. And that's very exciting. And again, that goes back to there is nothing permanent, everything changes, and that's a positive thing because it means that healing is possible and people can change. People that we like and people that we don't like, you know, and we can change. And the more that we become accepting of that and just accept reality for what it is in the moment, the more connected we feel and the less likely it is that we're gonna think that the only way to solve a problem is to die or to self-injure because it's it's not.
SPEAKER_01So for someone who's spent years struggling with thoughts of self-harm, suicidal ideation, what do you want them to hear today?
SPEAKER_00It's not your fault. It's not your fault. There's a reason why you've thought and felt these things, and they all make perfect sense. And anybody in the same situation would be doing exactly the same thing that you are, and you're doing the best that you can, and you need to do better. And there's help.
SPEAKER_01And as we close out, I just have a few more questions. When you think about adults who have been in those dark places and found their way through, what gives you hope?
SPEAKER_00What gives me hope or what gives them hope? Both.
SPEAKER_01Either.
SPEAKER_00Well, I I told you that all of the sending me images of of them building the life that they want to have or hearing those stories or seeing them, you know, grow up, if you will, um that gives me hope. You know, like I've also known loss in treatment because treatment does fail clients and it sucks. Right. And what makes it bearable is to know that treatment does work and treatment can help people and it can create really incredible, wonderful, beautiful experiences. And the other part that gives me hope, it's kind of like um, I don't know if you're an X-Men fan, but I like to think of uh DBT as Professor X, okay? And all the people who live life and they might feel things more deeply than other people, or maybe they just feel a little bit different than everybody else in general, right? And like we're all these mutants, all right. And therapy or DBT is Professor X, and he comes, and then we're all superheroes. And it's hard to believe that way, but our propensity to be able to feel sorrow and despair and all of these really deep, horrific feelings is directly proportional to our ability to feel joy. So if you are a person who has felt suicidal, that means that you can get to a place of feeling a natural high that other people who don't have the same energy wavelength as you can feel. I have this specific memory. My best friend's dad, we've talked every day since eighth grade. He recently died this year. And so this memory is coming to my mind about the propensity for joy. We walk in and we're in, I don't know, maybe 10th grade. We walk in and I'm a very exuberant person, if you can't tell. I feel everything deeply. Um, and I go inside and Anna and I, we are like starving. And we go to get this potato salad and we are ravaging it with potato chips, and we're like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. Like you would think that it was the first time we had ever eaten. And her dad looks at us and is like, are you guys high? And we were like stunned, like, what? Like we're just happy, like we're just eating potato salad, right? So when when we allow emotion, when we don't block emotion, when we see the beauty in emotion, even the beauty in pain, right? Like we're able to experience things so much more intensely. And then we can generate that to other people. And then it vibrates and it becomes even more intense. And, you know, so those are the things that give me hope is that um the people that I tend to help are they've given me so much more in my own life than I could ever give back to them. So every person, every client that I've ever helped, every supervisee that I've ever supervised, like I have learned, I don't want to become tearful, like I have learned so much more from all of them than anything that I could have ever given them. And so that is what makes me hopeful. And what makes them hopeful is I'm an awesome therapist. So, you know, there you go.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's interesting. You might also be clairvoyant because as you were talking, I was like, I wonder if she can just live in my house and help the Rader family solve the day-to-day problems because this is really good. And I do love the X-Men.
SPEAKER_00This is oh, you do love the X-Men.
SPEAKER_01Of course I do.
SPEAKER_00I do love the X-Men too. That you know, that doesn't land with everybody, but that's okay.
SPEAKER_01It landed with me. Well, Catherine, I want to thank you for being on today. I always enjoy talking with you. I'm Derek Raider, and this has been the Let's Talk About It podcast with Ohio Guidestone. Have a great day because you deserve it. For immediate, life threatening emergencies, call 911. Talking about mental health can save lives, and every conversation matters.
