Let's Talk About It With OhioGuidestone
There are things we all think, but don’t always say out loud. In Let’s Talk About It, the experts at OhioGuidestone unpack the real conversations happening at every stage of life. From early childhood to adulthood, we explore what behavior is really telling us, and when it might be time to reach out for support.
Let's Talk About It With OhioGuidestone
Behind "I'm Fine"
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“I’m fine” has become one of the most common ways teens hide what they’re actually feeling.
Behind grades, sports, social media, friendships, and expectations, many teens are carrying emotional pain they don’t know how to explain or are afraid to talk about at all.
In Season 2, Episode 3, Host Derek Rader talks with Shane Bakovich, LPCC-S, Therapist/Supervisor at OhioGuidestone, about warning signs and how conversations can help break through the silence… let’s talk about it.
There are things we all think, but don't always say out loud.
Is this normal?
Why am I feeling so overwhelmed?
Shouldn't I be able to handle this?
If you've ever wondered, "Am I the only one feeling this way?" You're not, let's talk about it.
OhioGuidestone's Promise Run is back! Join us at Wallace Lake in Berea on Saturday, September 22nd.
Questions about our podcast? Email podcast@ohioguidestone.org to get in touch with us. To learn more about OhioGuidestone, visit ohioguidestone.org.
Before we begin, we'd like to take a moment to share a content advisory. This episode contains conversations about suicide, mental health, and emotional well-being. Some listeners may find the topics difficult or triggering. We encourage you to prioritize your well-being and seek support from someone you trust, a mental health professional or crisis resource. For listeners in the United States, the Suicide in Crisis Lifeline is available by calling or texting 988. If this topic feels overwhelming, feel free to pause or skip the episode. Saying I'm fine is one of the most common ways teens hide what they're actually feeling. We're talking about warning signs and how conversations can help break through the silence. Let's talk about it. Hi, I'm Derek Rader, and this is the Let's Talk About It podcast with Ohio Guidestone. Today we're talking about self-harm and prevention, specifically in teenagers. I'm here with clinical supervisor Shane Bakovich. Shane, thank you so much for being here today.
SPEAKER_00You're welcome. It's my pleasure.
SPEAKER_01You know, I've really looked forward to this episode. On my way in, I was talking to my wife a little bit about, you know, we have a son who's a teenager and, you know, he struggled with depression. And, you know, as a parent, you know, you you want to find that balance between um, you know, being a helicopter parent, so to speak, and really helping them and meeting them where they're at, uh, especially with depression and self-harm and even suicidal ideation. Um, and it can be really, really challenging. Yes. So, you know, the work that you do is just so important. And I was actually really excited when I heard that you were coming in today to have these in conversation selfishly as a father of a teenager. Um, you know, hopefully you can you know help help me get a better blueprint as I navigate this path. Um, but also, you know, to get to know you because I've heard really good things. So again, I'm I'm really glad you're here. Um and I understand you work at our youth uh resiliency counseling center in Medina. Can you tell me a little bit about that?
SPEAKER_00Sure. Um, yeah, I worked at the Youth Resiliency Center um in Medina. Um we so we see youth, uh, or I should say kids anywhere from zero to 18. And I'll say 18 loosely because we do have some um some young adults who are either cognitively or developmentally delayed that we tend to see past 18, um, just to um because it's developmentally appropriate to continue their care within our unit. Um we have um we have multiple programs that run out of that center. Uh we have early childhood mental health, um, we have therapeutic behavioral health services, we have um individual psychotherapy, um, we have protect program. Um, we also have um, depending on the needs, we have an art room, uh sanitary room. It's a really great place uh and really created and keeping in mind of what a youth center should be. It's very well encompassing.
SPEAKER_01That's fantastic. It sounds like a safe place for teenagers. Yes, you know, which is, I think we can all agree, one of the most challenging times for all of us. We were all there once. I don't want to go back. I'm happy where I'm at. Yes. Um specifically, what makes a teen-centered environment uh different from a traditional office setting?
SPEAKER_00I would say keeping the teen in mind. Um, just like you mentioned um in the beginning, um teen years are so difficult. They're so hard to navigate. Um, you know, a lot of times when you're going through those years, uh the questions you're asking yourself is, who am I? Where do I belong? And oftentimes, as much as we don't want to admit it, it's not the parents that we go to for help when we're going um through our teenager years. So um a lot of times um kids are really not sure who they are with in terms of their identity, um, what they like, what they don't like, who their true friends are. Um, so it's a very confusing time for them uh to be going through. So keeping that in mind, we've really created um, you know, an environment where when a child or a teen comes in, you know, talking like you and I are talking right now isn't for every single teen who comes in. Sure. Um, so we do have alternative methods um and interventions to help them open up, whether that be through, you know, going outside and playing a game of basketball or throwing around a football or just engaging them in some type of a creative art activity. Um, or sometimes even doing just a sand tray um activity with them just to help them build that trust because a lot of times adults are not trusted with that information. Um, and so for them to come in and talk to us, we do need to do things creatively while keeping in mind that like we're gonna need to work a little harder to build that trust and relationship with them.
SPEAKER_01I love that. And, you know, someone recently told me, uh, specifically in regards to parenting, you know, the world that I grew up in isn't the world that my kids grew up in.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know, and especially as teenagers, it's so hard to get them to talk, right? Like one day they're so happy and they want to sit down and watch a movie with you, and then you don't hear from them from two days after that. So I take what I can get, right? Yeah. But, you know, some people say it's just teenage hormones. You know, I've heard people say that, well, but you know, they're hormonal. When can that mindset become harmful or cause us to overlook a teen who's actually really struggling?
SPEAKER_00I think it's a very slippery slope. Um I think that it's so easy to write it off as it's just a my son or my daughter or my child is just having a hard time. It's typical teenage years. I've just gone, I've gone through that myself. Or um, but the reality is it it's we all experience things differently. Uh what may look like depression to one kid can completely be presented differently to another kid. Um so for example, um, you may have um a teen who is typically pretty outgoing, um, engages in conversation with parents, um, is engaged in some type of extracurricular activity, hangs out with friends, typical teen, and I say that loosely, uh typical. Um, and then all of a sudden you notice that maybe your kid is not doing so many of those things. Maybe they're isolating a little more. Uh, they seem a little down. Um, maybe not they're not doing so good at school. Um, or maybe their sports um are just not as big of a priority anymore. And I think sometimes as adults, um instead of taking a step back and really putting ourselves in the shoes of teens specifically, we're so quickly to write it off as, eh, they're just going through it. It's a teenager thing. I've been there.
SPEAKER_01Right. Right. I can 100 as a father, I've done that. Right. You know, we had close friends, and their son, um, he was very active. He seemed to be doing well in school. Um, he had a tight group of friends he was hanging out with. Um, and then we found out that he was cutting. Yeah. Uh, which was a big surprise. He had a lot of of internal stuff he obviously wasn't sharing with his friends or his family. And uh, you know, it surprised all of us. Uh, why can't emotional distress be so difficult to recognize during those teenage years?
SPEAKER_00You know, Derek, I I am a firm believer that that starts at home. Um if if a child if a child in younger years grows up in a in a household that is not very emotionally expressive and is watching their parents or their caregivers um not really engaging in that like apologizing or um just saying the words, I'm sorry, I hurt your feelings, and child isn't being demonstrated those back and forth interactions. The child is not going to know how to do that. Um I typically will say to parents, I want you to think of your child when they're born as a brand new laptop. Unless you install a program, your computer will not do that. So, whatever you teach your child is what your child is going to essentially replay back to you.
SPEAKER_01Wow, that is so important. And I think so much about that. You know, I think I I wish so many parents, you know, as soon as they find out they have to take a uh a quick course on emotional intelligence. Yes. Because we don't talk enough about self-awareness, empathy. And, you know, and if it's not in the home, yeah, I can imagine the teenager's really going to struggle with that. Absolutely. That's going to be really, really intense for them. Um, and you know, selfishly, I did say that I was gonna ask you questions because I have two teenagers at home. Yeah. And, you know, they're on summer break. So everything that comes with that. Now, fortunately, my oldest, he has a job now, he's he's a lifeguard. But there are days where I'm like, hey, have we thought about showering? Or how about that hair or room? Is that I mean, his room is it's like I remember being a teenager. Well, full disclosure, my parents had to remind me what my room, excuse me, looked like when I was a teenager. But there's days when I'm like, what's going on here? I I guess my question is, how important are these changes when looking at a teen's overall mental health? I mean, as a father, should I worry when I'm like, why isn't he organized like me? Why isn't he? Is that something that we should take a closer look at?
SPEAKER_00Yes and no. So, yes, in a sense that I think sometimes we get stuck on what specific behavior am I looking for? Uh, what are the warning signs that I need to look out for? Those are important, yes. But what's more important is tracking the patterns of changes in their own personality, in their own behaviors. So, like I mentioned with the earlier example, if I'm used to seeing my teen operate a certain way, and then suddenly I'm noticing that my kid is not as eager to go hang out with friends, or is no longer interested in the activities like the sports that he or she used to be very passionate about, or that maybe the things that she wanted to hang on to for a very long time, she's suddenly like, eh, yeah, mom, you can donate that. I don't need it anymore. But you as a parent know that that is something she did not want anyone to touch. That is a prize possession. So if you start to give away some of those prize possessions, something that's so so important to you, you're isolating, you're withdrawing from others, um, you start talking about death, um, some of those things are very alarming 100%. But the prevention piece really comes in when you're paying attention to your child, when you're intentionally spending that quality time. I often say it's not about how much time you're spending with your kid, it's about the consistency of the time you spend with your kid. So there's um there's this um uh 15-minute rule um that I've that I've used with a lot of the families that I worked with, um, especially with kids as they're heading towards the teen years. Spend five minutes in the morning with your kid before school. Because that sets the mood for today.
SPEAKER_01I absolutely love that. I I really do. And and I think on the other side of the coin though, what do parents do when they have a teenager who is withdrawn and that you say, you know, what's going on? You know, is everything okay? And they say, I'm fine. What's behind I'm fine? And how do you get there?
SPEAKER_00Oh, that's a that's a big um I say I almost say it's a curse word in in in in my sessions when a client comes up to me and we're checking in and talking, and they say, I'm fine, and I'm like, what's fine? Um it can mean a lot of things, right? It can mean that the kid is just shutting down and doesn't want to talk to you. Maybe the kid doesn't want to indulge any um, they don't want to open up to you about whatever it is that's on their mind. Um, or it could genuinely mean that they are fine and they're just like, eh, I don't want to talk to you right now. I don't want to be bothered. Um, but really, when you start to notice those patterns of behavior that are not typical for your child, the best thing you can do is just check in with them and and and say it.
SPEAKER_01And let them know you're there. Let them know you're there.
SPEAKER_00Name the elephant. Right. I'm here to listen. I'm here to listen. I've noticed you've you've been withdrawing a little more. Is everything okay? Or just a good old, hey, I've just noticed things are a little seem to be a little off lately. I just want you to know that I'm here if you want to talk.
SPEAKER_01I love that. You know, I try to talk to both of my kiddos before breakfast. Although one of them, and I won't say which one, because they do listen to this and might be upset, uh, told me this morning that they don't do small talk in the mornings. Oh. So I will no longer be doing small talk. It might have just been early. I'm not sure. But on the other side of the coin, you know, we've talked about when kiddos and teenagers say I'm fine when they're not, but what about when they make comments like everyone would be better off without me? Or I just want everything to stop. How seriously should adults, friends, and really others in in that teen's life take those comments?
SPEAKER_00Very. Um when a when a kid tells you, when a teen tells you, really regardless of age, because anymore, kids are kids are just flooded with information, whether they come from parents, school, internet, it's everywhere. When a kid feels courageous enough to come up to you and tell you that I'm not okay, I'm thinking about hurting myself, I'm thinking of ending my life, or I feel like I'm burdening everybody around me, like I think you'd be better off without me. There is such psychological pain associated with that. There's such a sense of hopelessness and just feeling alone, as if no one really gets it. No one understands the pain that I'm feeling. And a lot of times you they feel that pain for so long that they do tend to engage in self-harm. And when that self-harm happens, it's not because it should be taken seriously because it is a coping tool, but it's not a healthy coping tool.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00Right. So there is this myth that sometimes teenagers will say, I want to die, or I just want to end my life, or people would be better off without me. And, you know, sometimes parents or caregivers will say, Well, like, oh, they're doing that for attention. I would err on the side of caution and believe them every single time because you never know what is on someone's mind or what they're going through. And just taking asking the question, like, what's not going well? What's making you feel this way? Talk to me.
SPEAKER_01In addition to that, what else should those parents do?
SPEAKER_00Well, it would be highly advised to get them to talk to a counselor. Um, if they don't feel like, you know, once your child tells you that they want to harm themselves, if they're not seeing a counselor, then taking them to the emergency room if it's imminent risk, if they're just very severely depressed and and wanting to end it in that moment, that should be something that you immediately like you want to be there for your child, you want to hear them, give them an opportunity to explain where they're coming from and what's contributing to it. And even after that, you want to be with them every step of the way, not make it an absolute, like, you have to go this, you have to do that. Make it a collaborative, we're in it together, and walk with them in that journey. Um, and remain calm when you do it. As scary as it is when your teen tells you, yeah, I want to hurt myself. It's so important to just sit with them in that moment and just remain calm and talk to them about what's going on and what's adding to the feelings, the pressure that they're feeling that they think that that's the only way out.
SPEAKER_01So be that stable foundation, that anchor that they need. Because, you know, sometimes they feel like a ship at sea and the waves are crashing over and you're saying, Hey, yes, I I'm here, I'm steady. We're gonna get to land. I really, really like that. Um, you know, talking about teenagers, they sometimes speak a different language than you or I do, especially me, as I mentioned, you know, going on 45 uh years old this year. So I don't get all the phrases and whatnot. And that's why I was looking forward to talking to you today because again, you're on the front lines, okay? So you know uh how to talk to these kids and these teenagers. What are some phrases or questions that you found that help teens to feel heard?
SPEAKER_00Honestly, I don't they're very creative and they're constantly looking for additional words to describe how they're feeling that only teens understand. And there's a reason for that. It's protection. It's not wanting adults to know what how and what they're talking about. So I I when I when I'm talking to them, I show up as me and I don't pretend I know, even if I do. If I'm familiar with the word that they're using, I'll ask them to explore what that really means. And I think the most important thing that we can do, whether you're a therapist, parent, friend, is just showing up as your authentic self and looking them in the eyes and just saying, hey, I may not have all the answers, but what I do know is that I'm staying by your side and we're gonna figure it out together.
SPEAKER_01I love that. I absolutely love that, you know, and I think um, you know, meeting them where they're at, that's that's really the that's really the thing right there. So, you know, both of my kiddos were we are very close. We spend a lot of time together. I really try to be an active dad. It's it's the it's my favorite part of life is being a dad. I absolutely love it. Um, you know, and they tell me about their day sometimes, not in the morning when they don't like small talk. But for the most part, they tell me about the day, their day, they tell me about their friends. Um what would you want every teenager to know if a friend tells them they're thinking about self-harm or maybe even killing themselves? I mean, what would you do there? What do you tell them?
SPEAKER_00So kind of similarly to what I would advise a parent to do, um, and really anybody who catches themselves in that intersection of that. So um peers are, whether we want to admit it or not, the most interacted individuals um as we're in that age group, right? Um, so if uh if a if a friend comes to you and tells you that they've been thinking about suicide or that they want to die, um, I think the most important thing to do is to again remain calm, but also remember that you are not a therapist, you are their friend. It is not your role to fix anything, you are solely there to support them and help them get to the next step. It's almost like a bus stop.
SPEAKER_01Right. And and you really answered what was my next question, which was I was gonna ask, you know, how do the how can teens support them without taking on the responsibility of a counselor or Or a therapist. So another question I have kind of to piggyback off that is, you know, kids and teenagers are big on trust.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01Right. Especially amongst their friends. They don't want to betray trust. Um, you know, but how do you help them understand the difference between keeping a secret and keeping someone safe?
SPEAKER_00So I think that comes down to the relationship that you have with your friend and really helping them understand that as your friend, I love you and I'm here for you, but I'm not an expert. I don't have the tools or skills to help you navigate through this outside of just being a good friend for you. So I really need you to help me keep you safe. And the only way that I can keep you safe is by having an adult involved. I will go with you. I don't want you to see this as a betrayal of trust. I want you to see it as us teaming up with another individual who has more skills, who has more knowledge, who has the answers and a plan to help us navigate this crazy corn maze, I think, of Halloween and just how frustrating the corn mazes can be, right? So, like you're in a corn maze, and typically when you have a buddy to tap in, you can help through it, you can get through it a lot faster. So I kind of think about it. It's weird. My brain just very much works in visuals. And so anytime I'm talking about anything, I just have like these visuals pop up in my head, and I'm like, it's like a corn maze. You know, it's a lot easier and less scary if you have someone to go with you through the corn maze than if you try to do it alone. Because we're social animals. We were never meant to do anything alone. So I think just really emphasizing to your friend that I am talking to you ahead of time because I want you to know how much I respect you and honor you and the friendship and trust that we have, that I am begging you, I am asking of you to team up with me so that we can tap in a trusted adult to help us navigate this.
SPEAKER_01That's great. You know, I was also thinking, you said corn maze, and I kept thinking, I don't know why I'm going about boats, but I was thinking a lighthouse, you know, be that light. Yes. You know, to guide them to shore safely. I recently watched a pirate movie, so had boats on my mind. Um, you know, but I I I also wanted to talk about self-harm, and I know we talked about it a little bit earlier. And that to me is a little bit of an enigma. I'm a layman when it comes to that. Um, can you explain why some teens engage in self-harm even when they don't want to end their life?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I can. So um self-harm is really what what it boils down to. It's a coping skill. A lot of times when you are suffering with pain and often dealing with it alone, um you feel it for so long, or you're just you feel so burdened by the heaviness and complexity of the psychological, emotional, possibly even physical pain. And there's this sense of hopelessness that things are never going to get better. And when you combine those two things together, nothing's ever gonna get better, and I keep just feeling this pain for so long, eventually you just develop this sense of numbness that like I have just been going through so long with this that I'm numb to anything that happens around me. And a lot of times teens feel like the only way to check the pulse per se is to feel the physical pain. And so they engage in self-harm. Um, I've heard a lot of teens refer to it as um, it's a reminder that I'm still alive. It's a reminder that I can still feel because I've been so psychologically numb for so long that I don't I didn't think I could feel anything else.
SPEAKER_01Wow, that's unbelievable. I I think uh, you know, looking at that is is part of it too, the physical pain numbs the mental pain because it, you know, it's it's still there, but the physical pain, they they can focus on that as opposed to other things.
SPEAKER_00So think of it this way. Say that you, and I hope this doesn't happen when you get up, but say you get up out of the chair and you hit your big toe on a side of the table, right? And then you run into someone and they spill hot coffee on you. Which one would hurt more?
SPEAKER_01I'm gonna go the hot coffee.
SPEAKER_00You're gonna when you feel the hotness, the temperature of that hot coffee, you're gonna forget about your stub toe, right?
SPEAKER_01Wow. I've never heard it explained that way, and now I get it. So thank you for that. Absolutely. I have a few more questions before we wrap things up, but you know, before we do, I I did want to talk about the elephant in the room that I always talk to uh with clinicians when we're talking about teenagers, and that is, of course, social media. Um, all the teens are using it. Uh, you know, I do my best to kind of keep uh an eye on what they're doing without being, you know, again, a helicopter dad. Yeah. Um, but you know, reading in the media, talking to other parents, social media gets blamed for so many teen mental health challenges. From your perspective, is it the technology itself or are teens uh are or how teens are using it? Uh, what are you seeing?
SPEAKER_00I don't see it as an all or nothing, or I don't really see it in absolute. I think it has pros and cons. Um, teens are going to go to social media because there's a sense of community. There's a sense of connection with others that they could connect to that may that they may not have in their physical life. So, an example of that would be um, let's see, um, I had a client who was really big in Dungeons and Dragons uh role plays, and they really wanted like other quote unquote weird people to connect with. And the rural that they were living in didn't really have anybody um who even knew what it was, let alone played it. So they found a huge community of DD players online and were able to find a sense of community, a sense of belonging, and just friendships, right? So that's a great use of social media. Now, of course, the caveat of social media is there's comparison, there's cyberbullying. Um, but if you ask me, no matter what we're comparing, there's pros and cons to everything. What it really boils down to is how are you helping your teen prepare for what all is available on social media? Do they have an open and trusting relationship with you to come to talk to you about when something comes up? A lot of times cyberbullying happens and parents have no idea.
SPEAKER_01Right. So this goes back to what we talked about is being that solid foundation. Yes, you know, that lighthouse, that person to guide you through the corn maze, so to speak. And I think that's so important, is just having that open dialogue, open conversations. So you've worked with so many teens over the years. Um looking back on the teens that you've worked with, what gives you hope?
SPEAKER_00You know, I think adolescents are so beautifully resilient. Um they go through, I mean, I have heard stories of experiences that a kid, a teen, a person should ever go through. And they could have come up with million other things to do, but they show up to therapy and they take the time to not just vulnerably open up to a stranger, but to do the work and show up consistently, heal, and advocate further for themselves, and then a lot of times be the agents of change in their own families. And so when I see teens doing that, it gives me hope for the next generation. Um and I, and this could be my own personal bias, but I just think adolescents are very misunderstood. Um and I think if we just take a little more time to get to know him past the book cover, um we could we could learn a lot more about him and just really see that there's a lot past the um anger, the outburst that may happen to slam doors every once in a while, or the attitude and back talking. Um, every behavior has a purpose. And I think just not getting stuck on the behavior, but asking, out of curiosity, hey, what's going on?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, you can help change change their lives, you know, help guide them in that in that right direction. And I say this almost on every podcast, but the Raider door is wide open. Anytime you want to come over for dinner, you can meet with my kids and uh give us some pointers because this is really helpful stuff. It really is, even with the subject matter that we're talking about. So, in closing, Shane, if every parent, teacher, friend, mentor, coach, or even any other trusted adults that might be listening today remembered just one thing from this conversation, what would you want that to be?
SPEAKER_00Talk to them. Just sit down and talk to them. You don't have to be, you don't have to have credentials, you don't have to have a graduate degree. Heck, you don't even have to be a therapist. I know, shocker. But just be intentional, be authentic, show you care. Let them know you're there, that you're a safe person that they can t they can come to and talk to when things are not so great in their life. Um, a lot of times I love to use the metaphor of um a compass uh with my clients. I say, like, look, adolescence is like being dropped in the middle of the forest and trying to find a way out. They all need a compass. And one of my favorite quotes um is that every kid is one carrying a doll away from being a success sorcess story.
SPEAKER_01Wow.
SPEAKER_00So if we all just take the time to show them that we're here, we're present, we're not distracting with phones. That doesn't count. Phones need to be put down, you're making eye contact, and you're showing them you're listening. And you let them know that, hey, I'm here if you need to talk. No judgment, no fixing, just listening.
SPEAKER_01Shane, you've given me a lot to think about, and I think our listeners as well. So I definitely want to thank you for being on today.
SPEAKER_00Of course. It's my pleasure.
SPEAKER_01I'm Derek Rader, and this has been the Let's Talk About It Podcast with Ohio Guidestone. Have a great day because you deserve it. For immediate, life threatening emergencies, call 911. Talking about mental health can save lives, and every conversation matters.
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